Libertarian Study Shows Medicare-For-All Saves $2 Trillion

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Libertarian Study Shows Medicare-For-All Saves $2 Trillion

77 thoughts on “Libertarian Study Shows Medicare-For-All Saves $2 Trillion

  1. Employers would save money too. That would not have to provide healthcare for employees. That savings can be help raise wages

  2. You are doing a VALUABLE service by getting the facts out on this, David. I have felt for a long time that there is nothing inherently hostile toward universal health care within the libertarian world view.

    • +Alan Blanes I think Libertarians just need to recognize they got duped. Pretending there is something legitimate there to evolve from is like telling a kid the bogeyman under their bed is actually not that scary or something.

    • Danny…it is difficult to slam the ideas of libertarians when they are confronting hypocritical and counterproductive governments. While I would prefer well thought out and good faith based social democracy, I feel people such as Ron Paul provide a very good critical analysis that forces us to test our assumptions.

  3. People are finally realizing that tax generated by the working class should be invested back into the community. Not fake wars for profit. Not corporate welfare.

    • Stri duh the deaths ar e real in those fake wars. I realize you’re probably inferring we’re involved on fake premises, but you’re leaving yourself wide open for stupid counter arguments.

    • “The second money-creation process, as our explanation above has made clear, is the process we have been habitually calling “government borrowing.” The issuing and auctioning of U.S. treasury bonds, as we’ve just discovered, is not “borrowing” money at all, but creating it. Most important, the dollars generated by this process, which are then spent by the U.S. government, are not spent in the pursuit of personal or corporate financial profits. They are spent to pursue the collective goals—and address the collective needs—of society at large.”

    • The US government has the authority to issue its own currency, unlike the EU countries who forfeited their own currencies for the Euro. HUGE mistake. THEY have to borrow all the time but a sovereign nation like the US never has to borrow from anyone. That’s one of many lies we need to debunk.

      Steve Keen, Michael Hudson, Stephanie Kelton, Bill Mitchell, Randall Wray are all heterodox (non-mainstream shill) economic professors who offer the truth.

  4. The mainstream media is owned by the ruling class, and medicare-for-all gets in the way of their profits, of course they’re going to paint it this way.

  5. I hope that someday school children will only have to read about the foolishness of money in politics in their history books.

    • FrozenWolf, they are random numbers. They were calculated using completely different methods. You failed at math.

    • FrozenWolf150 lol love how you came correct with the receipts.
      You’re not playing around with these – to put it politely – misinformed fools

    • Funny, when corporate apologists themselves cite the $32 trillion figure by falsely claiming it would be the amount of additional spending, they never call into question its validity.

      ETA: The $49 trillion figure comes from the annual NHE, which was $3.4 trillion in 2016, and the estimated growth rate of 5.6% over 10 years. The $32 trillion figure comes from an Urban Institute study that adds up the estimates of expenditures on different categories of care.

      But you don’t have to take my word for it.

    • FrozenWolf, that $32 trillion is admitted to be an under estimate. it does not factor in situations like increases in demand. Even with that the $49 trillion is calculated differently than the $32 trillion, so you can’t compare the two numbers.

    • Yeah, just make blank assertions without any citations or logical explanation. You know what causes an increase in demand under the current system? The need for emergency care due to lack of preventive care, with the former being much more expensive. People go to the ER because they have no other choice, typically for conditions that could have been caught earlier and treated more cheaply with preventive care.

      You have yet to prove how the two figures are mutually exclusive or contradictory. The $32 trillion figure comes from adding up the costs of different types of healthcare. The $49 trillion projected NHE is tabulated by adding up, “…type of good or service delivered (hospital care, physician and clinical services, retail prescription drugs, etc.), source of funding for those services (private health insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, out-of-pocket spending, etc.) and by sponsor (businesses, households and governments).” A single-payer system would eliminate out of pocket expenses, business expenditures on insurance, and private health insurance. The providers would be the same, Medicare and Medicaid would be combined, and the government would be the sole sponsor. One figure looks at who pays for it, the other looks at what it pays for.

      You are essentially arguing that one can’t compare the charges for a $1,000 emergency to the expenditures on a $1,000 emergency, because the cost is based on the treatments provided, and the money spent depends on who pays for it.

  6. Doctors have to employ a small army to handle the task of billing the various insurance companies and all the various plans their many patients have. Do they pay this, do they pay that ? The small army of billing specialists would no longer be needed. How much would that save each doctors office?

    • Rose Stewart~ different kind of skills, rather – medical instead of business. Couple that with less advertising, less predation (focusing upon profits, rather than helping people) and economy of scale/increased buying power…

    • not only that, but some of the shittier exchange plans employ call-center employees whose primary job is to stall and deny. So our entire system runs on paying for provider employees to call health insurance companies for approval while insurance companies pay people to stall and deny. Inefficiency is a feature, not a bug in American Healthcare. Even with prescription cards, they cause them to fail on purpose because they know the patient will often give up trying to get it fixed and pay out of pocket. If they can get just 10% to give up and pay out-of-pocket it is easily worth paying the people to stall us on the phone. We’re trying to get well, and they are intentionally stressing us out!!

    • New electronic medical records can scan the doctors note and generate billing codes automatically. Bots, but not from Russia.

    • Tony, perhaps that was true 20 years ago, but with the implementation of ms DRG codes, all billing has been standardized. Gone are the days of item billing. Maybe you should look at your insurance statement next time

    • +Brian Thompson That’s funny, because I usually get billed anyway and wind up having to call my insurance company myself and be on the phone for hours to get them to pay anything, otherwise it goes to collections and trashes my credit. I’m still getting bills from a hospital visit in December from doctors who didn’t even treat me. It’s a f’n disaster, and don’t even get me started on my insurance company not covering prescriptions unless it is in their mysterious formulary, and only in certain quantities and doses. None of this crap ever should have been under insurance company control, they shouldn’t even be allowed to establish networks. So-called networks mean more that everyone else pays more than getting discounts. I think we should line up Health Insurance CEO’s and give every American the opportunity to punch them in the face.

  7. you say its a savings Americans money, but for the pharma industry its a 2 trillion dollar loss. I can care less if pharma losses money im not benefiting from it. should be the thought. but the reality is that pharma is going to do everything it can to keep that from happening like pay politicians with donations.

  8. Yeah but in Canada you have the gulag! With like Justin Trudeau conducting mass executions every weekend in Toronto, with rape rooms and torture chambers , right? Right?

    • On cold nights I can hear the sounds of sharpening ice skates and clashing hockey sticks wafting across the border. They are animals!

    • +uncleanunicorn
      That is a complete exaggeration – every weekend? Please! With recent cuts, it’s only every other Thursday!

    • OMG, so true. Canada is a terrible, terrible threat to American NATIONAL SECURITY because of…. milk. And don’t forget that Canada burned down the White House… in 1814, when Canada was barely more than a British garrison and America was barely more than hick frontiersmen.

      You will know the truth when Trump calls Canadian socialized healthcare an unfair advantage.

  9. You don’t have to worry if you need to change jobs that you won’t be covered. I had to stay in jobs that were terrible for me mentally and physically because those were the jobs that offered healthcare.

    • Why do you think companies do not want this? You won’t stay when they abuse you if they can’t hold your health and wellbeing hostage.

    • I’ve been there, rather I am in that position right now (plus I don’t have to work nights or weekends).Good point!!

    • Or, the only jobs you *can* get are those with *zero* benefits. Need healthcare -cannot get it. No money (minimum wage only…) and no healthcare… most of the work I was able to get (graduated from high school with ‘decent’ grades (b+ avg), then went to junior college… still had trouble getting work of *any* kind (due to less-than-exceptional *con artist* skills…)

    • Indeed, that’s one of the biggest “not so obvious” benefits to M4A that I don’t see mentioned almost anywhere. No one is tied to their jobs for health insurance so you can actually leave your job to either get employed at a start-up, or start your own small business if you so choose.

    • Libertarian ideology is at least correct when it comes to the military industrial complex and the war on drugs, even if their domestic economic policy is absurd.

    • The part that always gets me is the fact that outside of north america, Libertarians are quite rare, and quite left-wing, having a polar opposite view on economics. Look up “Libertarian Socialism” on wikipedia for example.

    • Because outside of (North) America people aren’t obsessed with freedom and liberty. they have their priorities and libertarian movement for those priorities a bit better, not to mention they’re more socialist nations anyway and don’t worship capitalism like a religion.

  10. I dunno about Canada but in the UK a Conservative wet dream would be to privatise the NHS. They can’t make it policy as they’d be destroyed but if you ever analyse their actions it’s clear they want it gone.

  11. The only way will get this is if the wealthy people want it. For some reason, we only do what’s good for the 1% in this country, not what is good for the 99%.

    • The healthcare system in all of these other countries is no doubt adequate with goo outcomes. They are run well. But one thing they are lacking is “fresh blood”. Young ppl. These countries are getting old, and their immigration policies are more barbaric than even in the USA. The USA still has birthright citizenship. The Europeans don’t get to choose their immigrants as many are rushing from Africa and the Middle East via asylum. Their system has weaknesses. If the USA was to adopt any European system, the country as a whole would be much stronger than now. Overall, I believe the USA system has greater upside, even though right now it is in a rut.

  12. One point that is not often if ever talked about is the fact that not only would it eliminate an individual’s personal healthcare costs but that it would also have a major cost savings on Worker’s Compensation. As a former construction company owner these costs are huge. For example in the extreme case, a steel worker costs $150 per every $100 of pay just to insure for injury on the job. So if say that person made $50,000 to employ it would cost the employer $75,000 in WC insurance per employee per year. Currently there are 140,000 steel workers in the US. Using these estimates WC costs the US steel industry 10.5 Billion annually! Worker’s Comp covers wages as well so it’s not a complete savings, but there is one more kicker. In the event that you actually need to use WC, the first thing the insurance company does is test you for marijuana and other drugs. If you pop positive they deny the claim and keep all your money!

    • Eric Yates. Wrong. I live in a socialist country, but employers have to insure their workers. That is to give them a security, if a worker gets his foot smashed in a freak work-accident and must amputate, it will not do, that the public healthsector pays for it. Somebody got to pay him for the earnings he lose for life, and the cost to remodel his house so a disabled person can live there. You will get a little bit cheaper insurance, but the major cost is compensation for the persons injured, not the medical. Construction companies here, that do not insure their workers, they get disbarred. And when you get universal healthcare, you better get used to waiting for operations if it is not critical. A bad elbow that makes a worker not being able to work, will not get fixed in the time you need, so you must pay him sickleave for a few months while he waits, and probably hire a temp for him too. So you will want to have medical in the insurance too, so you can send him to a private clinic to do it within 1 week. Companies in socialized countries use private care to get their workers back on the job faster than public health does.

    • Eric , your numbers are so entirely wrong. The highest WC premium I have ever seen is 5.6% of employee wages and that was for loggers.

    • Brian Thompson My numbers came directly from training I had to take as a contractor and were given to me by the industry trainers.

    • Tony H I’ve wondered this myself, considering the fact that THC is still a federal crime. I would err on the side of caution. The insurance industry is just looking for ways to deny your claim.

    • Brian Thompson Since you don’t like my numbers I went to the Bureau of Labor Statistics website and here is what I found: In 2015 we spent over 66 Billion in WC costs in the category of natural resources, construction, and maintenance (NRCM) group workers. That is one category comprised of over 4 million workers.

    • Tacet the Terror I’m in the U.K. and was glad David mentioned this. Went to emergency a few weekends go and had to stay weekend in hospital. Did not pay a thing. The feeling of not having to deal with insurance or worry how I’m going to paying for something is priceless.

    • Noonelikes Aknowitall I’m amazed there’s anyone in your country that complains about it, but in retrospect I only heard it from one guy.

    • Teenkitsune it was probably Jeremy Hunt in disguise. Pretty much everyone loves the NHS here and the only complaints from the general population are the waiting times and lack of staff. Brexit has contributed to an exodus of staff especially nurses. We have to thank the past generations for fighting to create the NHS because it would not have come about in today’s world with all the propaganda against social programmes.

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